LTF | The Power of Art, Identity & Breaking Barriers with Fazilat Soukhakian

Fazilat Soukhakian: 00:00:00

All of the sudden that feelings of very strong guilt came to me, like, and, you know, it was huge. Telling me that I'm supposed to go to hell and be hanged with my, you know, hair practically on the fire.

Melissa Allison: 00:00:21

Welcome to Loving the F. I'm Melissa Allison and this is the podcast that looks at the forbidden and says, why don't you come up and see me sometime?

I talk new guest each week and examine the female finances, friends, family, fitness, and all the other F words. So join me, especially if it's forbidden.

I am so excited because I am here with photographer and teacher and forward-thinking artist Fazalat Soukhakian. And you are from Iran or Iran?

Fazilat Soukhakian: 00:00:57

Iran.

Melissa Allison: 00:00:58

Iran. And we met because I helped you with one of your projects. Yeah. Do you want to give us a little bit of your background for people who aren't familiar?

Fazilat Soukhakian: 00:01:07

Thank you. Hi, I'm Fazilatt Soukhakian. I teach at Utah State University and I'm a photographer, an artist.

So I worked, you know, I was a photojournalist back in Iran. So I came to the US in Cincinnati, Ohio, and I got my master degree in fine arts and PhD in visual studies. Back in Iran, I was photojournalist.

I was working on a lot of news photography projects and mostly documentary projects which was dealing with social issues.

So I'm interested to document anything related to social issues because if you grew up in Iran from your childhood, normally you kind of confront with a lot of political issues. So moving to here, my projects continue the same. You know, I deal with the same issues in society.

Back in Iran, I dealt with, you know, loss of identity. The topics like loss of identities, gender issues, gender segregation in society and stuff like that. And here the same things.

So right now I'm working on a project which is about LGBTQ community in Utah and how they are and specifically, you know, this project is about people in Utah mostly from like, you know, back with a Mormon background, but who are supporting their children who are somehow dealing with the identity issues and they're struggling with, you know, sexuality and gender issues. So I'm very interested about this project.

I think, you know, like, I had a lot of friends, you know, I dealt with a lot of community here and a student who dealt with this issues of, you know, gender issues.

And I think it's important in Utah specifically because still, you know, people are somehow suffering from like, you know, being scared of, you know, revealing their identity mostly. So I'm pretty interested.

So I came across Melissa, you know, unfortunately, fortunately, and we talked and she has two Beautiful daughters who are dealing with the same issue. So I photographed her with her children and I love that photograph.

Melissa Allison: 00:03:50

Oh, thank you. And you gave me one, you brought me a print that was. And it's beautiful.

I just love it, the way that you work and you put people at ease when you're shooting them. So it was really nice. And so one of the projects that you sent me was called Forbidden Hair. Tell me about that project.

Fazilat Soukhakian: 00:04:11

So that project is about one of my experience when I was a kid, practically nine year old. So you know, in Iran a lot of things are forbidden in Iran.

So the most, I think scandalous things in Iran is the fact that women should wear hijab and they can't reveal their hair and body.

And from the very early age, specifically you know, when they're nine years are old, when they reach the age of puberty, they like women, kids practically, girls should cover their hair and you know, body. So this project is a somehow like very conceptual project.

It's not a somehow documentary which is like normally what I do, it's a very different project. So I remember when I was 9 year old and I reached the age of puberty supposedly and I had to cover my hair.

So normally we get a lot of like instruction, school and stuff like that that you know, you have to cover your hair from this day and you know there are something in Quran or you know, like Prophet Muhammad, like Islam advises practically that if you don't cover your hair, you know, you go to the hell and you will be hanged by your hair.

So that project comes from the fact that, you know, I was nine year old and I in elementary school, third grade and I was walking the street with my mom, not covering my hair. I have a very open minded family thankfully. And so we were walking and I saw my elementary school teacher walking in the street and he said hello.

She talked to my mom and stuff like that. Nothing happened.

And the day after we went back to school and I was in a class, sitting in class and she looked at me and in front of everybody she said that now we know who's going to hell and be hanged with one of her hair. It's you know, I was nine year old and you know like it's the age that you start feeling that, you know, about, you know, beautifying yourself.

You know, how your hair is beautiful, how your body like the feelings of femininity, yours starting to experience that. And then all of the sudden that feelings of very strong guilt came to like and you know, it was huge.

Telling me that I'm supposed to go to hell and be hanged with my, you know, hair practically on the fire. So it was like kind of very difficult, you know, time for me. And I became very religious during that time.

Like I started wearing hijab, like, and very, you know, religious for like four years maybe because I was scared. I thought that I have to react, really cover my hair and do everything the way it's been said, you know, by society, by religion to me.

And you know, I don't know. So it was very interesting.

And that project, like it was just, you know, somehow reflecting that feelings that, you know, how I was kind of dealing with two sided, like beautifying, you know, beautiful hair on the other side. Hair becomes a sign and symbol of sin and you know, like guilt practically.

Melissa Allison: 00:07:50

So you are, I don't want to say you're on a personal crusade, you know, but you're dealing with topics that in your own country that could get you in a lot of trouble.

Fazilat Soukhakian: 00:08:06

Oh yeah.

Melissa Allison: 00:08:07

And cause you a lot of pain and suffering. And so how do you, how do you push? What gave you the courage, the hood spot, whatever you want to call it, to ignore all of that?

Fazilat Soukhakian: 00:08:19

I mean, it was difficult at the beginning. When I was back in Iran, I was doing, working on the same issues and you know, the issues that was not like we were not mostly allowed to talk about.

And you know, it's not only the fear of being arrested by the government or something like that, but I think worse than that is that the fact that you might be judged by people who are, you know, close to you. Like, I think that's even worse than anything else.

Yeah, it like put you in a lot of fear or like you censor yourself a lot of times because you don't know. Like sometimes you even feel that you're doing something wrong. And yes, it is difficult sometimes.

But you know, part of the reason that I moved here was the fact that I wanted to work on projects, to feel free, you know, to do whatever because I thought they were very emotional, important issues. Like I suffered from it.

I saw a lot of my friends, a lot of my, you know, the community that I was in, they were suffering from, you know, the same issues. And I thought they worse mentioning they worse, you know, exploring being explored. So it is, you know, sometimes very difficult to deal with that.

But you know, sometimes it feels liberating when you talk about them. Like, you enter new community.

Yes, a lot of people judge you, but at the same time you find your own community, new people who support you and you know, who think the same way that you think they are like strong people who, you know, who are there for you. So I feel now I feel like really good that I'm working on these issues. Actually.

If I don't work on important issues, sometimes I feel like really, you know, in my art I feel pointless. Like, you know, I don't feel satisfied of what I'm doing with my art and my photography projects. So I think, you know, I'm enjoying now.

So I think I got over the fear now and I feel much good, you know, working on these projects.

Melissa Allison: 00:10:37

So you've been doing this for a while.

Fazilat Soukhakian: 00:10:39

Yeah.

Melissa Allison: 00:10:40

And what do you see?

Whether it's the people, the subjects that help you or the communities that you're working with in, I don't want to say exposing, but they're the point of the, you know, the subject. What have you seen any positive impacts or negative impacts? What are the, what's the outcome of the work that you're doing?

Fazilat Soukhakian: 00:11:06

So I think it's.

I mean, the things that makes me happy is that I keep hearing from people who I photographed them previously that, you know, for example, that project came out and it had some really good impact on the way, you know, for example, you know, he or she was judged by his family. So it helped him get out of that community, you know, speak up about himself. And I think in general, what is art for?

Like normally it's just to help the society become more open and, you know, help you, I think in the situation that is super restricted in the societies that are very, you know, suppressed and difficult to deal with.

Like art always come and help people because this is the way that we talk and communicate with people and it talks, you know, with the language of feelings and emotions and kind of deal with people's emotion and people, you know, become more open. So I had a lot of experience, I was like fortunate enough to have a lot of experiences that people before told me that, oh, that project was awesome.

Like I exhibited those projects in a gallery and people came and visited those photographs and they felt that, you know, it's sort of liberating or it's like this photograph is giving them, you know, the somehow bravery to come out of whatever, like to do the same things to, you know, get over their fields. So, you know, I think it gives me that satisfication and I like it.

But at the same time, I love documentary project because, you know, I deal with real people, I talk to real people and their stories, what your doing, right? And you get to know a lot of people.

And it's so, you know, interesting that, you know, you get to know their, you know, new people, new stories, and you reveal somehow, you know, their stories. You're helping them, or you're helping yourself, practically. So I like this part of, you know, art and documentary photography projects.

Melissa Allison: 00:13:21

Right.

You know, I know with my daughters, at least it validated them having someone wanting to take their picture because of who they are, because of what they identify as. And that for them was just like. Well, and for me, you know, as their mom, I thought it was a wonderful experience.

And, you know, in this society, you know, it's interesting to hear from your perspective, being from Iran, the so many similarities that it comes in a different package, but there is still that same pressure to conform, follow the rules, and not to shine a light on yourself.

Fazilat Soukhakian: 00:13:58

That's exactly the same. You know, I was telling you that before that, when I was back in Iran. I like, this is the way we think.

Normally, we perceive Western societies, especially America. You think that, you know, America is a super free country. People are doing, you know, living the way they truly want to leave. Right. This is.

This was my perception of America.

I came to the US And I was in Cincinnati, and I had friends and classmates in University of Cincinnati who were dealing, like, with, like, their sexuality, but they couldn't come out. They couldn't admit.

And I was way surprised, you know, in my country, if you are, you know, lesbian, gay, LGBTQ community, you know, you can't admit that because it's so difficult. I've. I haven't been back in my country for six years. I know that a lot has changed, but it's very.

I knew that during my time, like, they would be hanged, they would be killed, because, you know, there's not such a thing accepted in my society. But here I was like, oh, my God, this is a. This should be a norm, right? This is something very normal.

But it's so, like, my classmate was suffering, and it was not even in Utah, you know, Cincinnati, Ohio. And, like, it's. I don't know, Like, I was very shocked that why this is happening in America.

But obviously, we're still, you know, dealing with the same issues in different level, of course. But, I mean, the issues are the same.

That's why, like, for my thesis project, when I was in mfa, I did a project actually about, you know, gender relations and the meaning of, like, what gender is actually what sexuality create. Like, you know, create practically wall for us or what is it that define ourselves. So I Mean, I think it's still here.

The same issues in different, very different level. But, you know, that was the point that I thought I should keep working on these kind of projects.

Melissa Allison: 00:16:14

You know, it's interesting because as I continue to work on this podcast and answering the questions that people have about what my motivation is, I'm finding that like, I did an episode, I launched it on my birthday, and I have two friends who have the same birthday, and we took a picture of ourselves blowing out candles. Well, Stephanie had put a ton of candles on it and I'm like, wow, we're gonna have to really blow hard to get all these candles out.

Well, so when I take the picture, I look like a puffer fish. My cheeks are, you know, and I'm blowing hard and they're just posing like they're going to blow because they want the pretty picture.

And I saw the picture, I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, we need to change this. So we redid it, you know, and as I, I don't remember how I came to this, I was talk.

But I realized the whole theme of the show of this podcast is dealing with the forbidden. And so the forbidden of ugly pictures. The forbidden of showing yourself exactly who you are in that moment. Yeah, exactly.

So I posted that picture along with the episode. And I'm finding the more that I do that, the more free, the more liberated I feel.

And so when we take off that expectation of perfection, it allows us to sit back and. And I'm just doing this for two, not even two weeks. This is one week today.

And so, yeah, so I think about what you're doing as a photographer and pushing yourself forward. How are you doing that? Now, I know you're wrapping up a project, but what are you doing to push yourself?

Fazilat Soukhakian: 00:17:57

I mean, it's everything about pushing yourself, right? It's pretty difficult.

Sometimes it gets difficult because, you know, I had to photograph a family here in Utah like a couple weeks ago and it was very interesting. The family were very open minded. You know, like, the mom was very religious and she was very nice woman.

She had his daughter with her partner, you know, came to home and I photographed them. They are lesbian couple and you know, the whole family are religious, but they were very open minded.

They were very welcoming to both of them and, you know, very interesting when I saw that whole like, you know, family. But then I told them that I might publish this project and they told me, the mom later talked to me and she said, I don't feel right.

My neighbors don't know that. And, you know, like, I totally understand.

And I was like, okay, I'm not gonna ever publish this if you don't feel, you know, right, and you just tell me, you know, I send you the picture, you know, the JPEG file, you look at it, and if you feel right, you just tell me otherwise, you know? But then I kind of asked myself that, am I sort of, you know, I don't know, like, breaking their private zone, right?

So, like, always when I'm doing a project, because all these projects are about people, right? And it's difficult. Like, sometimes I feel, am I ruining their. That private zone?

Like, am I kind of interfering that, like, maybe they are just so nice to me and they're letting me do that. But they all, like, people have their own secrets, right? These photographs are going to be published.

They're going to go in exhibitions, and people are going to see these, and they are scared of being judged. And I'm practically revealing all their secrets, right? So. And then later on, she calls me and she said, no, you know, just publish them. I like that.

Let them think whatever they want. And I.

I felt so good about it, but I just, you know, sometimes I feel it gets difficult when I'm doing that, like, or when I'm doing a project that, you know, I don't know if. If. Because you normally think about it is my judgment, right?

You know, so I deal a lot with these issues of, am I doing something to disturb somebody's. Because I had a friend. Actually, it's an interesting story.

I had a friend who was photojournalist from Iran, and he did a project about LGBTQ community in Iran. And then he later on, he moved to America and he published that project.

And at some point, he told me, he was talking to me and he was saying that how he never knew that that project is going to. To be so worldwide. Like, a lot of people are going to see that.

Like, he published in a very small magazine, and somehow that magazine went viral, and everybody practically saw those photographs.

Melissa Allison: 00:21:23

Oh, my goodness.

Fazilat Soukhakian: 00:21:24

You know, something happened to those, you know, people back in Iran. Nothing very dramatic. They later on escaped Iran, but could have happened, right?

So it's something that, you know, I always keep thinking, whatever, I'm doing a project. I mean, it's not that difficult here in America.

It's much easy, and at least people are not gonna be killed or something because, you know, they reveal their story. But still, like, people don't want to be judged, and I don't want to do something that make them uncomfortable.

But, you know, I felt really good when she called me and she said no. I thought by myself. And I think it's okay even if people judge me or my neighbors look down to me, but I feel good about my daughters and you.

So I felt really good about that.

Melissa Allison: 00:22:18

Yeah, you know, I feel like. Well, like when you did the forbidden hair.

It's funny, my perception of the forbidden hair having naturally curly, frizzy hair is like out of control hair, you know, but it was a totally different topic. But the way that we identify ourselves and relate to things and it really is.

I mean, I'm so glad that she was able to come back and say, you know what? I'm not worried about it. They're gonna think and feel whatever because we imprison ourselves, right?

Fazilat Soukhakian: 00:22:49

Exactly. That's all it is. You know, we make that all the restriction for ourselves. And I don't think that it's all on us.

Like, a lot of times the society push you towards, like, specific thinking, right? Practically society or religion, your church, your mosque, your whatever, like, creates that boundaries for you.

But, you know, when you try to get away from that, I think it's the time that you think that, hey, you know, let's put everything aside and think about my life and what I want to do. So, I don't know, like, it. It might get very difficult.

But at the same time, when you really, truly get away, overcome all those fears, then you feel really liberated. I feel.

Melissa Allison: 00:23:41

So you. You have. There's. You have pushed your. That forbidden ideology. You also teach, and I'm sure you have conversations about ethics and things like that.

But also.

So my question is, what advice would you give anyone who's listening, who's thinking, I'd really like to expose this part about myself or give myself permission or move past beyond that belief or work on a project that might not be considered kosher. Right. What advice would you give to help them move past that process or go through that process?

Fazilat Soukhakian: 00:24:26

I mean, I think the first thing, the way that I went through, Let me tell you this way. I censored myself for my whole 26 year of, you know, the first.

I'm now 35, and before I come to us, it was pretty difficult in a society that you feel that if you publish something, you might get arrested, then you might get judged, then something else might happen to you.

I censored myself a lot, you know, during my childhood with all the fears, you know, the religion put it on you, the society put it on you and everything. And Then when I came here, thankfully, I didn't have anybody to judge me anymore. I started from zero point, so.

And it was like so good to feel that, you know, nobody cares about you. I'm here, here with nobody around me. I can do whatever I want. I can publish whatever I can think of anything now. I can reveal my hair in any way.

And nobody cares about me because, you know, I'm practically. Nobody sees me here. So it was a. Such a good feelings, you know. But what I suggest is that you need to do your research first.

You need to, you know, somehow, how should I say that? Like, you know, accepted yourself truly not. You know, one day you feel, oh, I want to do that. Another day you feel, oh, no, this is so difficult.

I don't know if it's right. I always say that. Do your research fully. If this project is something that you truly feel that, you know, you have to do that.

You do your research and see is it the right kind of thinking that you have. And after you did your.

Your research, I feel, you know, your responsibility is gone, practically, you know what you want to do and just do whatever you want and think about it. Anyway, this is my perception in, you know, life anyway, whatever you do in life, people are gonna talk, good or bad. Right. You're the best person.

They're gonna talk and judge you. You're the worst person. Still the same. So don't care about anybody. Just do your work. And at the end, I mean, I'm sure I did the same thing.

You know, it's fear at the beginning, but then you feel really liberated.

Melissa Allison: 00:26:52

Yeah. You know, when I first moved to Utah, I was married still, and I had a next door neighbor. I called her Mrs.

Kravitz, based on a character from an old TV show who was very nosy. And my next door neighbor. Her and her family, our children, loved each other and got along, but as parent, as adults, we did not.

And I don't know what the problem was. I didn't really have any issue, but I had the luxury of cordless phones. You know, before everyone had cell phones, it was cordless phones.

And apparently we had the exact same cordless phone. I'm talking on hers. Mine, she's talking on hers. And somehow our lines crossed and I heard everything she was saying, and I'm like, hello, hello.

Because I was talking to my husband and he was gone. But all of a sudden I'm hearing her conversation with our mutual friend.

Fazilat Soukhakian: 00:27:50

Oh, my God.

Melissa Allison: 00:27:50

And they first say, somebody's moving. I'm like, who's? Moving. So I keep listening and then they start talking about me.

Fazilat Soukhakian: 00:27:57

Oh wow.

Melissa Allison: 00:27:58

So I got an inside view and I was like, wow, it's really interesting how people can be one way to your face and then just rip you apart. So you have to have. I remember I confronted her on. I went and I'm like, you know, and she was embarrassed.

But it just demonstrated to me that exactly what you said. People are gonna talk about us, good or bad, to our face, behind our back.

And that's when you have to just trust your gut and go with your instincts and surround yourself with people who you feel safe with.

Fazilat Soukhakian: 00:28:32

Exactly. You know, find your own community. And I'm sure like this was the case for me.

When you do what you truly, you know all about that I think you find a lot of people the same, doing the same things and that's when you feel that you know, you are truly belong to that community and you were wrong, like to the different community before.

So don't be scared of losing friends or you know, some family members because they're gonna come back to you at the end when they see you happy in life and doing whatever, you know, kind of, I don't know, I feel it's a good energy that you put it out. When you are happy with your own life, you are satisfied of doing in life. And no matter what they think later on they're gonna come back to you.

So I wouldn't waste my life thinking about like what how people are gonna judge me with this project or the other project. This is something, if I did my research well and I know that this is something that I, you know, it worth exploring. I need to talk about this issues.

I'm not gonna, you know, I faced with this and I have to do something about it, at least my part. I might not be able to change anything, but at least I talked about it because I've witnessed that.

So, you know, no matter what they say, you do your own things and you get always the satisfaction that you deserve.

Melissa Allison: 00:29:59

Yeah.

And you know, it's funny when, when you live from your core, from your authentic self, life has a way of weeding out the people that are non essential and inviting the people that will enrich your life.

Fazilat Soukhakian: 00:30:14

Exactly.

Melissa Allison: 00:30:14

And you know, used to be Mormon and leaving the church, I lost, you know, a lot of family and the relationships were damaged and friends and was very isolated and it was a very painful time. But there's also. You get to choose your friends. You get to choose people that you spend your time with and Build a family of choice rather than DNA.

Fazilat Soukhakian: 00:30:43

You know, just accidental, you know, something that you just. You are born with it. Right? So you didn't choose, but I'm sure you found your own new community.

Melissa Allison: 00:30:54

Well, and I still am, you know, and the more that I embrace just exactly who I am, I mean, it is scary. Doing this podcast is scary because it's like, it's just putting yourself out there.

And I remember before it launched on my birthday, I literally felt like I was standing naked before everybody. And it's not like the whole world is listening, though. There are five people in Sweden listening to this podcast. I know.

Or it's been downloaded five times. I don't know how they found it. I don't know. But it's. It's scary. But it's also giving myself permission every day to just.

And if people respond to it, wonderful. I love that. And if they don't, that's okay, too. You know, they have. They have a different voice they're looking for. So. Yeah.

So I have to ask you at the end of my interview first, is there anything that you want to add? Any thoughts that we didn't touch on that you want to.

Fazilat Soukhakian: 00:31:46

I think we talked about a lot of.

Melissa Allison: 00:31:48

Yes, we did. So the question that I ask everybody at the end is, what did you used to believe was forbidden that now you enjoy in your life?

Fazilat Soukhakian: 00:31:57

That's a very interesting question. I mean, I came with a lot of forbidden. I grew up with a lot of forbidden. I don't know.

Like, if I tell you that in my country, singing is for women is forbidden, dancing for women is forbidden, biking for women is forbidden. Wow. A lot of things. My hair revealing my hair is forbidden.

So everything, you know, that I wouldn't do that before, and I would be so scared of, you know, doing that. But the thing.

The interesting point is that the things that was so difficult to think about, even, you know, getting close to that, like, gender relation in Iran is so forbidden. So stuff like that in other societies is so just a norm. Like, it's a basic of life, practically. Right.

So, I mean, a lot of the stuff that I'm thinking now, but a lot of the projects, I was so scared of doing one project in my life. Let me tell you this. It calls an anonymous battle.

This project was something about, you know, it's about Muslim women in an Islamic society and how they are going, you know, so this project is playing with the perception of west and East. Like, it's kind of criticizing the way Western people live. Look at Middle Eastern women specifically.

So I was very scared of doing that project because I didn't want to touch on the issues of hijab because it's been talked like they constantly talk about that and they create a lot of stereotype. And I was very scared of creating the same stereotype I'm showing women.

Like it's not documentary project, it's again like I photograph in a studio model staged, but like Muslim women in a hijab, who's doing like for example, on a skateboard, on a motorcycle, with a dog that is like haram forbidden in, you know, Islamic world.

So stuff that is happening, it's real in Muslim countries, like women are liberated, like they're trying to liberate, they're trying to help themselves now without any sort of external help. They are super forward minded, open minded now. But I knew that I'm gonna get a lot of critique from both sides.

And I did got a lot of critique, but at the same time, I got the most success about this project than any other project because it was about something that you. I dealt with that issues a lot. I knew that a lot of people here are gonna tell me that, oh, this might not be right.

This is contradict our view about Middle Eastern woman.

And I knew that in my country or in, you know, Middle Eastern country are gonna say that, oh, she did the same things, talked about some like women in hijab again and created another stereotype.

I don't know if I did or not, but at the same time I know that I got very happy of doing that project because I got so many good feedback and like so many people love that project. Talk to me about that project. And I exhibited that like in a lot of venues. And I feel really good that, you know, I did it.

And people don't say in my eyes at least now that, you know, what a crappy project, you know, I don't know, I feel really good about that project.

Melissa Allison: 00:36:01

Yeah, you know, it's interesting because when you were talking about the women and you know, and this is universal as well, but women get a lot of static, a lot of criticism because they're seen as conniving and deceptive and just manipulative.

And when I think about the restrictions placed on women, you know, on your country still in this country, you know, 100 years ago and further, you know, not able to own land, not able to inherit their home, you know, their childhood home, not able to vote, not able to have a job, not able.

Fazilat Soukhakian: 00:36:39

To be a doctor in this society, you know, in Some religion, like women, don't have the same status quo as men in church, for example. Right.

Melissa Allison: 00:36:49

Yes. Not able to be a priest or to present the sacrament or whatever, to bless it. And I think, you know, when you are.

When you have so many restrictions, it's like literally binding somebody with ties and then telling them to get from point A to point B. They're not going to do it like everybody else does it. That is unbound. They have to find a way to get there.

And so as women, when they have all of these constrictions they had, they couldn't go to their husband or to their father or brother and say outright what they thought, what they wanted, and influence them. They had to fly under the radar.

Fazilat Soukhakian: 00:37:29

Oh, exactly.

Melissa Allison: 00:37:30

And so I used to feel.

I used to feel bad about certain aspects of being a woman, you know, but now I think we are so resilient, so resourceful, and that, you know, when we can't judge each other because we don't know what the conditions that we've grown up in.

Fazilat Soukhakian: 00:37:49

Exactly, Exactly.

Melissa Allison: 00:37:50

And I think that if we can just come to an open mind and build a bridge, so to speak. This isn't the topic of the conversation, but it's so true.

Fazilat Soukhakian: 00:37:59

It's true. It's exactly what it is.

I mean, we need to help each other to get over our fears and, you know, overcome a lot of stuff that is so easy for men to do.

Melissa Allison: 00:38:11

Right.

Fazilat Soukhakian: 00:38:12

You know?

Melissa Allison: 00:38:12

Yeah.

Fazilat Soukhakian: 00:38:13

But I mean, I think we're doing that, so.

Melissa Allison: 00:38:15

Yeah.

Fazilat Soukhakian: 00:38:16

And things are changing very fast, like, in my country. I don't. I can't believe that. Like, I follow a lot of people on Instagram just to see how. How things are changing.

Melissa Allison: 00:38:27

Yeah.

Fazilat Soukhakian: 00:38:28

You know, everything is so changing, and a lot of change are being done by these very strong young women who are not as scared like I was scared back then. Right. So I think the new generations are way active, and they're very. Yeah.

Melissa Allison: 00:38:46

And, you know, I want to, because I have daughters, but I also have sons, so I have to balance out this conversation. I want to make it clear that liberating women and giving women the same rights does not detract from our men and that we need our men.

Fazilat Soukhakian: 00:39:01

Exactly.

Melissa Allison: 00:39:02

We love our men. Our men.

I mean, men in general, whether you are heterosexual, bisexual, transgender, whatever you are, that you hold value and that us wanting to stand next to you in equal footing and presence is not. It is not sliding that. Because I do. I love men. And I hear, you know, even things like. And I am off on a tangent. Okay. We'll end it.

But I'll finish this thought. Even things like women, when a man opens a door for you or carries something for you, thank him.

Hopefully he's doing it because that's who he is as a man. That's regardless of who you are.

He will do that because of who he is, but show us some appreciation, you know, And I think that's, you know, and some women are probably like, I don't need a man to open my door.

Fazilat Soukhakian: 00:39:53

I know.

Melissa Allison: 00:39:53

You know, because it goes back to all of the things you were talking about, you know, society and stuff. But for me, and I guess this is a personal thing. I like a man opening my door.

Fazilat Soukhakian: 00:40:03

Yeah.

Melissa Allison: 00:40:03

And even women open my door sometimes. And I still say thank you.

Fazilat Soukhakian: 00:40:07

Yeah. It doesn't matter who they are. Right. It's just out of respect, no matter if it's a guy or anything.

Melissa Allison: 00:40:15

And so thank you so much for doing that. Was Fazilattsu Haki on Photographer, professor and just all around outstanding human being.

If you would like to learn more about her and the work that she does, visit lovingthef.com I'll have all of her information there. Also, please go to itunes and rate Loving the F. You've been listening to Loving the f. I'm Alyssa Allison, and I hope you'll join me again next week.